Pride - Good / Bad / Ugly?
A friend from New Zealand commented to me that she did not like Americans. Which was striking to me because I'm an American. I was not born in the states, but became naturalized at 18. When I was naturalized it was really a means to an end. I needed a way to get a passport easily. In retrospect, I find my naturalization to be one of the finest moments in my life -- I love America.
Back to the friend. She made an extremely uncharacteristic remark (or perhaps I think too much of her), "Americans suck...". She's made jabs at America before, but I typically take them in stride. But everyone has an envelope, and she had certainly pushed beyond it.
In a slow, calm-yourself down, measured typing pace, I ask her to please refrain from insulting America. Next, I query her, "Why?" She replied that "she did not know." She stated that she fealt that Americans were arrogant and proud. I asked her why she thought this, and she wasn't quite sure. Well, I can't debate a feeling, so the conversation became stagnant.
I mentioned to her that I did not think that pride was a bad trait. The first instance of acceptable pride that comes to my mind, is the pride you have after you have accomplished something in your life. For instance, when I graduated from the University of Southern Mississippi, I was very proud. It was quite an accomplishment considering my family's blue collar roots. (Dad drives a truck - Mom is a desk jockey for a corporation [but not quite white-collar].)
The friend mentioned that she believed pride to be a bad characteristic. I have two opinions about pride being bad.
Opinion one is that unreasonable or inordinate pride is certainly a bad trait. This is inline with Plato's belief in moderation. Moderation is a good thing, however I believe that everyone should dream big or not at all. So, I certainly agree that an extreme amount of pride is bad. +1 for her argument.
Opinion two is that she believes people should not be proud, because those who have not accomplished will be offended. For instance, I should not be openly proud of my college degree because someone who has not graduated from college will feel inferior or offended. Opinion two really bothers me.
Too much effort is spent in America to NOT offend people. Euphamisms such as obese and overweight are used in place of fat. Why is fat offensive? Probably because it usually demonstrates a lack of discipline. As a matter of fact, this is usually the case. Please don't throw the `thyroid disorder' excuse at me. It is estimated that less than 1% of the population suffers from obesity because of thyroid problems.
Ok, everyone tread lightly in the states and don't offend your fat friends ;).
Back to the friend. She made an extremely uncharacteristic remark (or perhaps I think too much of her), "Americans suck...". She's made jabs at America before, but I typically take them in stride. But everyone has an envelope, and she had certainly pushed beyond it.
In a slow, calm-yourself down, measured typing pace, I ask her to please refrain from insulting America. Next, I query her, "Why?" She replied that "she did not know." She stated that she fealt that Americans were arrogant and proud. I asked her why she thought this, and she wasn't quite sure. Well, I can't debate a feeling, so the conversation became stagnant.
I mentioned to her that I did not think that pride was a bad trait. The first instance of acceptable pride that comes to my mind, is the pride you have after you have accomplished something in your life. For instance, when I graduated from the University of Southern Mississippi, I was very proud. It was quite an accomplishment considering my family's blue collar roots. (Dad drives a truck - Mom is a desk jockey for a corporation [but not quite white-collar].)
The friend mentioned that she believed pride to be a bad characteristic. I have two opinions about pride being bad.
Opinion one is that unreasonable or inordinate pride is certainly a bad trait. This is inline with Plato's belief in moderation. Moderation is a good thing, however I believe that everyone should dream big or not at all. So, I certainly agree that an extreme amount of pride is bad. +1 for her argument.
Opinion two is that she believes people should not be proud, because those who have not accomplished will be offended. For instance, I should not be openly proud of my college degree because someone who has not graduated from college will feel inferior or offended. Opinion two really bothers me.
Too much effort is spent in America to NOT offend people. Euphamisms such as obese and overweight are used in place of fat. Why is fat offensive? Probably because it usually demonstrates a lack of discipline. As a matter of fact, this is usually the case. Please don't throw the `thyroid disorder' excuse at me. It is estimated that less than 1% of the population suffers from obesity because of thyroid problems.
Ok, everyone tread lightly in the states and don't offend your fat friends ;).
posted by pythoncoder at 1:12 PM
10 Comments:
Pride, like so many other aspects of humanity must be placed in the proper context. How easy it is for people to focus solely on the negative connotations of the word pride without also examining the positive.
Pride can also provide the fuel that pushes individuals beyond there expected potential. Certainly I’m most motivated when someone attempts to imply that I can’t do a certain thing. Some would argue that self-motivation of this type could end with disastrous results, but I disagree.
Wanting a better life for yourself and those you care for is also manifested from inner pride. Many of America’s great innovators began in extremely harsh conditions. Thomas Edison for example should have never been able to escape the bitter circumstances of his life. However something within this man drove him from near poverty to becoming one of the greatest inventers in history. Industry savagely tried to prevent the development of the light bulb, but once again Edison was able to push beyond the desires/expectations of others and created something that brought great change to the entire world. Now I ask you, what was the fuel that encouraged and drove this man?
Certainly pride comes before the fall, but pride can also be the means by which a man can also pull himself up from the mire of his life. As for your lady friend contrived notion that American’s are prideful, well unfortunately that is the result of a young mind who is basing her entire ideology on theories having not yet LIVED in the real world. America is the idea that all people can rise to accomplishment, great and small. Examine where American is today, and do a comparison of where most of the world is, and then decide for yourself whose ideology has prevailed.
That's a nice blurb about edison. But you missed the most important of all his contributions. The electrocution of animals to prevent the use of AC. The excerpt below is from the wikipedia.
Edison went on to carry out a càmpaign to discredit and discourage the use of AC. Edison presided personally over several electrocutions of animals, primarily stray cats and dogs, for the benefit of the press to prove that his system of DC was safer than that of AC. Edison's series of animal executions peaked with the electrocution of Topsy the Elephant.
You seem to misunderstand, when I said I hate America, I dont mean it on the same level as you, say, would say "I hate the New York Yankies"(only team I know :| )
My dislike is not for the people as a whole, as such (see below), but more so for your Government, more specific, GW Bush.
I ask you, have they yet to find weapons of mass destruction in Iraq? No, you say?
Bush still claims there are weapons to be found, even though the country has been somewhat tipped upside down, so to speak. PRIDE has stopped him from admitting he was wrong (or the pride of his admin.),and yet he has this ardent desire to claim there still are weapons everywhere....I oppugn his claims, but, like i said, due to the opprobrium that would entail him, he refuses to admit he is wrong.
For this, I do not like him, he is too full of pride.
A good thing? I do not know, I apparently don't live in the real world, where I HAVEN'T seen racism, or I HAVENT seen death, muders, rapes. I do live in this world everyday, and it is a struggle to do so, but that is LIFE, isn't it? I do not live my life in books, nor computer games; I have a job, in order to put myself through Uni, I have friends, I like to party - Have I not lived in the real world? Guess not...
What is the real world? Americia? Is that the real world?
The reason I DISLIKE, not hate, Americians, like mentioned, is their pride. Now, you may have already guessed I am far from a fan of the war. Mr. Python here supports it. Perhaps it is a country of difference, or maybe he is full of pride for being an Americian, and us, in NZ, don't have any pride? Bush was very quick to lash out at countries not supporting the war, and in the paper yesterday, the US spokesmen in NZ, claims 'it is hard to believe such a peace loving and freedom loving country does not support the war'. A county that is the same size as Japan, but has......mmm.....the numbers escape me, perhap 1/24 of the population (Japan, 127.3 million, NZ, just reached 4 million), can not put much into a war effort, even if we had supported it. Our FEMALE PM (are you Amerians also against Woman leaders too?) refuses to commit troops, and I support her wholely. I guess, you could say I have PRIDE in that decision, where as you over there will be saying 'they have no pride for their allies and their own country for not sending troops over'
Isn't that werid, what I would view as POSSITIVE pride, you would view as NEGATIVE pride. I fail to see why the Americians still have gusto in war. They think they are in the RIGHT. I will stop this part of the debate here; Many think they are in the wrong, many think they are in the right. Who knows? Not I...
Pride of the flag, is a somewhat interesting concept here.....
Not allowed it out at night, unless it is lighted, not allowed to drop it, lest you have to burn it, not allowed to be in the rain, etc....
I have nothing to say about this, I just thought it interesting...you care ALOT about your flag; you are filled with pride when you see it....
What? I was just saying....
If a man does something wrong, hurting his wife, and PRIDE stops him from admitting he was in the wrong...is that a good thing?
Sure, the man still has his pride!
Thats all that matters, I mean, I would HATE for him to lose it.....
As for Edison, just question...Are you him?
No, you say?
Wow, that is interesting, see, here I was thinking you knew what it was that drove him to success...
You could debate that it WAS pride, or maybe something else...perhaps a desire to live a better life, a desire to appease someone else, a desire to....
Are you saying that everyone who has the desire to do well, is fueled by pride? Sir Edmond Hillary (on our $5 note; first man ever to reach the top of Mt Everest.), was he fueled by pride to reach the top? He wanted to prove to the world that it could be done, and he wanted to be first....to what extent, if any, is that pride?
Look, the points I have made here are somewhat feeble, but this was quick, as I have to go out to do things in the REAL world, but it gives a general picture of m views.
My views are just that, mine.
I would not hold it against you if you said you hated the Lakers, whereas I love them (which, I don't, I hate basketball!(fine, hold it agaisnt me...)). I would understand that your opinion is your inermost thoughts and feelings, and you will NEVER find EVERYBODY in the world would agree with you. I may not like Americians as much as I like the Japanese, but there will be others who like Americia more then Japan. Thats life.
I think the reason I dont like the Americians as much as I should, is because they have done everything I believe against. I know that like most democratic countries, the people dont really matter ;), and there were alot of Americians who objected to the war.....do they have no pride!? They don't suport Bush, and the country! They therefore must be either terroists, or have no pride, and not Americians!
I feel strongly about the war, but you Americians felt it was your job to be war mongers...has there ever been a time you WEREN'T in war?
Blah, I don't know...
Its my view that in more cases the none, is that pride IS a bad thing, moreso than a good thing.
I hate Bush, I'm prejudiced against Americians, and I disapprove of the war in Iraq.
So what?
RB
Oh, further more, I also think Pride can sometimes be confused with arrogance, or perhaps they are one in the same? If you are arrogant, are you full of pride, or too much pride, or are you just being arrogant?
If you are full with pride, are you arrogant?
Think about it.....
Oh, you don't think too much of me either ;)
You get what you don't wanna hear from me, but hey, that's life :P
RB
RB Says:
I ask you, have they yet to find weapons of mass destruction in Iraq? No, you say?
Me:
No they have not found weapons of mass destruction. And probably will not. However, the invasion was based on intelligence that indicated that Iraq did have weapons of mass destruction.
RB:
Bush still claims there are weapons to be found, even though the country has been somewhat tipped upside own, so to speak. PRIDE has stopped him from admitting he was wrong (or the pride of his admin.),and yet he has this ardent desire to claim there still are weapons everywhere....I oppugn his claims, but, like i said, due to the opprobrium that would entail him, he refuses to admit he is wrong.
Me:
He does not still claim they will be found. He claims that the intelligence was bad.
RB:
For this, I do not like him, he is too full of pride.
Me:
If that was what he was currently claiming, then yes you would be correct. But your facts are not straight.
RB:
A good thing? I do not know, I apparently don't live in the real world, where I HAVEN'T seen racism, or I HAVENT seen death, muders, rapes. I do live in this world everyday, and it is a struggle to do so, but that is LIFE, isn't it? I do
not live my life in books, nor computer games; I have a job, in order to put myself through Uni, I have friends, I like to party - Have I not lived in the real world? Guess not... What is the real world? Americia? Is that the real world?
Me:
I don't know what this real-world stuff is all about. I live in computer games myself. I step into the real-world on occasion to program in Python. But programming in Python feels a lot like utopia...
RB:
The reason I DISLIKE, not hate, Americians, like mentioned, is their pride. Now, you may have already guessed I am far from a fan of the war. Mr. Python here supports it. Perhaps it is a country of difference, or maybe he is full of pride for being an Americian, and us, in NZ, don't have any pride? Bush was very quick to lash out at countries not supporting the war, and in the paper yesterday, the
US spokesmen in NZ, claims 'it is hard to believe such a peace loving and freedom loving country does not support the war'. A county that is the same size as Japan, but has......mmm.....the numbers escape me, perhap 1/24 of the population (Japan, 127.3 million, NZ, just reached 4 million), can not put much
into a war effort, even if we had supported it. Our FEMALE PM (are you Amerians also against Woman leaders too?) refuses to commit troops, and I support her wholely. I guess, you could say I have PRIDE in that decision, where as you over
there will be saying 'they have no pride for their allies and their own country for not sending troops over'
Me:
I support the war because terrorists are dieing and they are staying off of American soil. Do you think people like (misspelled I know it) Abu Zhakar Al Moosaui would be running a coffee shop in Jordan if he wasn't cutting off people's heads in Iraq?
And that was a nice little dig about the U.S. not supporting women leaders... Good try. 14% of the U.S. senate is comprised of women.
RB:
Isn't that werid, what I would view as POSSITIVE pride, you would view as NEGATIVE pride. I fail to see why the Americians still have gusto in war. They think they are in the RIGHT. I will stop this part of the debate here; Many think they are in the wrong, many think they are in the right. Who knows? Not I...
Me:
Defending the American way of life - Yes it makes me proud. Very proud. The fact that people who don't even know me are willing to fight for my freedom is beyond awe inspiring. Killing terrorists is a good thing, so I would say that we are right.
RB:
Pride of the flag, is a somewhat interesting concept here.....
Not allowed it out at night, unless it is lighted, not allowed to drop it, lest you have to burn it, not allowed to be in the rain, etc....
I have nothing to say about this, I just thought it interesting...you care ALOT about your flag; you are filled with pride when you see it....
What? I was just saying....
Me:
Yes, I love the flag.
RB:
If a man does something wrong, hurting his wife, and PRIDE stops him from admitting he was in the wrong...is that a good thing? Sure, the man still has his pride! Thats all that matters, I mean, I would HATE for him to lose it.....
Me:
Yes, that would be too much pride.
RB:
Are you saying that everyone who has the desire to do well, is fueled by pride? Sir Edmond Hillary (on our $5 note; first man ever to reach the top of Mt Everest.), was he fueled by pride to reach the top? He wanted to prove to the world that it could be done, and he wanted to be first....to what extent, if any, is that pride?
Me:
Yes, and deserved pride. Being the first to do something very difficult is quite an accomplishment. Kudos to Sir Edmond Hillary!
RB:
Look, the points I have made here are somewhat feeble, but this was quick, as I have to go out to do things in the REAL world, but it gives a general picture of m views. My views are just that, mine. I would not hold it against you if you
said you hated the Lakers, whereas I love them (which, I don't, I hate
basketball!(fine, hold it agaisnt me...)). I would understand that your opinion is your inermost thoughts and feelings, and you will NEVER find EVERYBODY in the
world would agree with you. I may not like Americians as much as I like the Japanese, but there will be others who like Americia more then Japan. Thats life.
Me:
I only have one question. How many Americans do you know? Please realize that the country you hate is your number two trade partner. We're second behind Australia. And while we are mentioning Japan, you do know who wrote their constitution, right?
RB:
I think the reason I dont like the Americians as much as I should, is because they have done everything I believe against. I know that like most democratic countries, the people dont really matter ;), and there were alot of Americians who objected to the war.....do they have no pride!? They don't suport Bush, and the country! They therefore must be either terroists, or have no pride, and not Americians! I feel strongly about the war, but you Americians felt it was your job to be war mongers...has there ever been a time you WEREN'T in war?
Me:
You believe against:
* Stopping rapes.
* Stopping mass-murders.
* Stopping the payments that went to homicide bomber's families.
* Enforcing UN resolutions. Iraq SURRENDERED UNCONDITIONALLY in the Gulf War.
* Spreading the light of liberty to the oppressed.
Because that is what we have done, and you did state that we "have done
everything I believe against."
RB:
Blah, I don't know...
Its my view that in more cases the none, is that pride IS a bad thing, moreso
than a good thing. I hate Bush, I'm prejudiced against Americians, and I
disapprove of the war in Iraq. So what?
Me:
Yes, it is a safe assertion to say that "in more cases the none" pride is a bad thing. Find one instance where pride is a bad thing and your assertion is true!
Hate is a strong word. You seem to be blinded by it. You hate the man that leads the war on terror and make no mention of the monsters that lead the terror movement. The world is an upside down place.
Is it just me, or did that `real world' comment really chap your hide? :)
14% of the senate are woman...wow...good odds...our contry is run by a woman!
Yours could be too!
JOKES!
Of course you blame anyhting that goes wrong on intell. Far be it from you, the leader of a country to say you are worng; we all know the states have the best intell in the world....so lets blame it on them
Abu Zhakar Al Moosaui would be running a coffee shop in Jordan if the war never happened, and you would probably be dining there right now.....
Defending the American way of life - Yes it makes me proud. Very proud. The fact that people who don't even know me are willing to fight for my freedom is beyond awe inspiring. Killing terrorists is a good thing, so I would say that we are right.
Fighting for your freedom?
Interesting.....if they werent over there dying, would you still be free today? how do you define free, anyways? a criminal is free in america?
Me:
Yes, that would be too much pride.
So, a negative thing? - Find one instance where pride is a bad thing and your assertion is true! - guess it is true, then ;)
I only have one question. How many Americans do you know? (8) Please realize that the country you hate is your number two trade partner.(they arent keen on continuing it if we dont break off our 'nuclear(sic?) free policy, and let their WAR ships into NZ) We're second behind Australia. And while we are mentioning Japan, you do know who wrote their constitution, right?(dont get me started on Japan, I love that country, and feel VERY strongly about the nuke you dropped on them; sure, it saved more lives in the long run, but how many innocents were killed? I dont even want to start this debate, so, let it lie)
You hate the man that leads the war on terror - yes, but not just for that. Does stupidity count ;)?
haha...
I do believe in stopping rapes and muders.....so why not sort it out in your own country first! lead by example!
just as a question, how much has this war put Americia into debt, if at all?
Is it just me, or did that `real world' comment really chap your hide? :) - yes, yes it did, just like me calling you a gay accountent, accidently, capped yours ;)
RB:
Of course you blame anyhting that goes wrong on intell. Far be it from you, the leader of a country to say you are worng; we all know the states have the best intell in the world....so lets blame it on them
Me:
Actually, IIRC, the CIA was gutted by President Clinton. But either
way, we have to go with what we knew, or rather what we thought we
knew at the time.
We *thought* that Iraq had these weapons. Why did we think this?
Because inspectors weren't allowed into Iraq. Couple this fact with
Iraq's admitting to having a nuclear weapon development program in 1995, and you have a good reason to invade.
RB:
Interesting.....if they werent over there dying, would you still be free today? how do you define free, anyways? a criminal is free in america?
Me:
Freedom isn't stripped away at once. It is an incremental process
that goes on virtually unnoticed. Yes I would be free, but future
generations certainly would not if we did not confront terror on our
terms. Free - the ability to make decisions on one's own accord without government intervention.
No, hopefully criminals are in jail. Once they have served their time they are free. However, they aren't completely free. For instance, felons are not allowed to own firearms.
RB:
I only have one question. How many Americans do you know? (8) Please
realize that the country you hate is your number two trade partner.(they arent keen on continuing it if we dont break off our
'nuclear(sic?) free policy, and let their WAR ships into NZ) We're
second behind Australia. And while we are mentioning Japan, you do
know who wrote their constitution, right?(dont get me started on
Japan, I love that country, and feel VERY strongly about the nuke you dropped on them; sure, it saved more lives in the long run, but how many innocents were killed? I dont even want to start this debate, so, let it lie)
Me:
The war ship thing. That is because we neither deny or confirm that we carry nuclear weapons on our ships. Oh well. If you think NZ is gonna sever trade ties with the U.S., you're being naive. NZ Exports to the U.S. $21.6 billion, NZ Imports $23 billion. That is too much money to make a `principaled' stand over.
(http://www.traveldocs.com/nz/economy.htm).
Speaking of your love for Japan, let me remind you of a few things
your beloved Japanese did during world war 2.
Unit 731 - The Japanese performed the most awful of tests on people
from infants, to elderly to pregnant women. Here are some of the tests they performed:
* Live vivisections were performed on prisoners infected with various
diseases; scientists would remove organs to study the effects of the
disease on the human body.
* Prisoners were amputated limb by limb to study blood loss.
* Arms were cut off and reattached to opposite sides.
* Limbs were frozen and sawed off.
* Stomachs were surgically removed and the esophagus was reattached to
the intestines.
* Parts of the brain, lungs, liver, et cetera were taken out.
* Vivisection of a pregnant woman (impregnated by one of the doctors)
and the fetus.
* Human subjects were deprived of food and water to study the effects
and duration before death.
Read more about these atrocities at the wikipedia
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731).
As far as the nuke goes, in war, American lives are more valuable than those of our foes. Sorry.
RB:
You hate the man that leads the war on terror - yes, but not just for that. Does stupidity count ;)?
haha...
Me:
So you think the war on terror is reason to dislike him? Thus I can
conclude that you perceive the war on terror to be bad, hence you're
allied with the terrorists?
RB:
I do believe in stopping rapes and muders.....so why not sort it out
in your own country first! lead by example!
Me:
We do prosecute rapes. What are you talking about?
RB:
just as a question, how much has this war put Americia into debt, if
at all?
Me:
A lot. Freedom is not cheap. However, if congress would reign in
their spending, and stop building `bridges to nowhere' then we would
be alright.
RB:
Is it just me, or did that `real world' comment really chap your hide?
:) - yes, yes it did, just like me calling you a gay accountent,
accidently, capped yours ;)
Me:
Grrrr. It did. :-]
So you think the war on terror is reason to dislike him? Thus I can
conclude that you perceive the war on terror to be bad, hence you're
allied with the terrorists?
If this is your awesome conclusion, then hell, I guess I am....I guess 90% of NZ are terroists then....not to mention all those red-blooded Americians who DONT support the war, cause believe you me, there are!
You plan to invade us next? Irrational? perhaps, perhaps not, who knows...after all, I am terroist....
If you think NZ is gonna sever trade ties with the U.S., you're being naive.
I never said this - I said you, as in America are holding back, and retarding us. You want us to destroy our nuke free legistation, and then, and only then, will you start free trade. Seems fair? I thought not....
This is what makes us, as kiwis, who we are today, and you US'ians (nice neologism :P) want tocome in and destroy what we worked so hard for! otherwise, you threaten us about slowing trade! big bullies - you act on terror too....think about that!
Sounds fun...
We *thought* that Iraq had these weapons. Why did we think this?
Because inspectors weren't allowed into Iraq. Couple this fact with
Iraq's admitting to having a nuclear weapon development program in 1995, and you have a good reason to invade. <-- my friend said it best when she said -
Empress of the endless dream says:
just because they had weapons doesnt mean they will use them
Empress of the endless dream says:
thats like justifying invading america
Empress of the endless dream says:
"oh they have nuclear weapons"
Enough said.
She is no fan of bush either -
Empress of the endless dream says:
omg!
Empress of the endless dream says:
even after he failed to help hurricane katrina victems for SEVEN days
Empress of the endless dream says:
thats ridiculous
Empress of the endless dream says:
within hours of the tsunami there was aid
Empress of the endless dream says:
and that is in a 3rd world country
Empress of the endless dream says:
in a developed country that shouldnt have happend. and all because of the war on terrorism. It is impacting negatively on the americain people and they are being blinded so that they are happy while their freedoms are taken away
Empress of the endless dream says:
(im sorry this is a subject that gets me worked up)
Guess Im not the only one :)
As far as the nuke goes, in war, American lives are more valuable than those of our foes. Sorry.
Empress of the endless dream says:
terrorists are not dying. the innocent are dying
Empress of the endless dream says:
an entire country are not terrorists
Haha, and I dont even have to say anything!
Thats all for now
oh, she said this, which i think you will enjoy
Empress of the endless dream says:
he sounds like the least free person ive heard of. His mind is enslaved, but he thinks it isnt. I guess its actually pretty ingenious
Haha, goodnight!
Oh, did I forget to mention - my friend, she is a terriost, or did you already pick that?
Her parting retort -
Empress of the endless dream: the people that the us are targeting are not terrorists
Empress of the endless dream: what about the war on drugs that has taken a backseat now that there is a war on terrorism? Surely drugs are a terror within the country that should be sorted before things outside the country are seen to?
Empress of the endless dream: It will rot their country from the inside
That's what I meant by 'sort it out in your own country first'; you have too many things wrong in your own country to try and fix another....
Oh, also, I hear -
Empress of the endless dream: they are single handedly destroying jamacias economy as well
Empress of the endless dream: through the restriction of trade
Sounds familiar, perhap NZ?
Haha, win....
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